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welcome to skeptical where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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my guest today is Mariana Kaplan who has

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a new book yoga and psyche Mariana

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welcome thanks so much for joining me

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sir pleasure to be here looking forward

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to it I am too I was so excited to read

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this book I'm such a yogi and I have

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done such a yogi for so long and I think

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that anyone who's ever stepped on the

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mat and had a sense that more is going

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on than just these poses I think is

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gonna get the gist of the book but but

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tell us you have such a fantastic

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background to write this book tell us

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what you're getting at in the connection

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between yoga and psychology and then we

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can take it from there

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great so so my whole adult life has been

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spent studying studying practicing

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teaching in these parallel traditions

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though I I really do prioritize at the

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role of students when we're talking

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about something as vast as yoga or as

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deep as as a psyche which is connected

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to the world of psychology you're a very

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practical pragmatic person which I think

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goes with these two together I mean

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Yogi's most Yogi's they get on that mat

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and get on that mat every day and have

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the discipline to do it become or are by

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nature very practical pragmatic you are

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and you also bring that to your

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psychology work too to your therapy work

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we should mention people besides you

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know you've written some other very

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interesting books that we're going to

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talk about the guru question half way up

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the mountain

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eyes wide open which is some of the work

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that initially drew me to you because

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you are very again practical in very

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forthright in saying hey we need to

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exercise discernment in this spiritual

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path too and then there's this other

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side of you that actually is this people

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helper side the psychologist therapist

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and I get the sense from listening to

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you and reading about

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your work that you encounter a lot of

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people in your therapy work who are on

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this journey either as spiritual seekers

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or as yoga students or as yoga teachers

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so that's become a whole part of your

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practice as well right tell people

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really quickly before we get in to the

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bulk of this interview your your therapy

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work and how that you know fits into

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this yeah

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so and I'm glad you asked because I

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spend three days of my life

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every week for years on end as a

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psychotherapist in a broad sense I will

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work with and include anyone in my

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practice because I feel that life is

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essentially spiritual or spirituality is

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essentially human however we put it hope

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people have a sense for who you are from

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that introduction but I was hoping we

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could do is kind of enter into this

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conversation this dialogue along the

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lines of what we talked about on skeptic

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oh and that'll give a listen to this

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show a reference point to you your

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fantastic book people got to buy this

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book if you stepped onto the yoga mat

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and you've thought there's something

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more to this like maybe there's some

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psychology that's going on maybe there's

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a reason why I start crying halfway

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through my my yoga session or the reason

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what I see all the time in yoga is

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people who can't sit for or lie down for

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a minute and shavasana no they pack

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stuff up and they want to leave it's

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like do you maybe think something's

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going on there with you that you feel

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like you have to leave you can't sit

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there quietly for a minute so these are

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the things I want to talk about kind of

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not directly from the standpoint of the

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book but kind of in general so I thought

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what we might do is start with some very

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basic definitions of stuff that people

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have to know to understand where you're

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coming from psychology everybody knows

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what it is but tell us what you think it

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is from the perspective of your work as

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so the

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psychology as contrasted with yoga

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yoga's 2,500 to 5,000 years old

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psychology is about 138 years old and so

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psychology as a field is emerging but

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the psyche right so an individual unique

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aspect of the self that's somewhat

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distinct from from this unifying

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consciousness it's unique and its

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particular and its individual and it's

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most likely extends well beyond our

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individual lifetime into

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intergenerational sleep a lot of that

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doesn't fall under psychology and you

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have the PhD after your name and you

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have to you know you have friends that

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go to APA or maybe you go to APA you

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know there's so I'm gonna put a pin in

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that we'll talk about that later

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yoga real quickly what is as people

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understand it and what is it you know

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you had an interesting experience the

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first person that you encountered at a

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very young age had a much broader

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probably a closer to the original

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definition of what a yogi is but what's

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yoga from the standpoint of what most

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people think Yoga is well that's a

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complex question I mean most people may

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think that yoga's a set of exercises

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practiced by thin flexible people who

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look you know something like a Yoga

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Journal cover right so many people think

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of yoga is a series of exercises and a

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little funny story my dad's 86 he's

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trying to read my book and he said him

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I'm really trying to read my book but

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the problem is I don't know what yoga is

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I'm gonna have to look that up and I

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said you don't have to look it up you

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can just ask me I'm right here personal

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psychology transpersonal psychology has

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I did an article with with a couple of

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students about surveying 50 people in

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the field so they all had different

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definitions but what I would say is that

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it's a full spectrum psychology so it

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attends not only to our what traditional

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psychology attends to to our

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relationship issues addiction

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wounds neuroses psychoses extends into

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into the full spectrum of what is

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possible for a human being to develop as

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and one of those things I appreciate

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about transpersonal psychology and what

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it can provide is that as we are opening

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and becoming more of ourselves there's

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new levels of obstacles or challenges so

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it's a psychology that attends to all

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all levels of human development and

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awareness somatic psychology somatic

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psychology includes the body in in the

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psychology and in in the in the

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therapeutic process and I practice this

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all the time with clients so psychology

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starts to drop into the body where where

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our whole conditioning lives inside of

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our nervous system right the yoga does

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it in a different way and in my 20-plus

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years as a as a therapist the turning

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point was my my discovery and then

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training further in informatics because

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when we bring the life of the body into

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our into our healing of our story of our

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wounds I find that it is more efficient

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or enlivening and often more movement

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happens okay the reason I bring these up

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is just to be fair or to anchor people I

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mean there's a huge gulf here there's a

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few huge chasm in psychology between

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traditional psychology psychology as we

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know it psychology as our kids are

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likely to encounter it in school and the

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kind of stuff you're talking about and

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it's not that this gap can't be bridged

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or that you don't bridge it quite

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beautifully but it's controversial to

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say transpersonal psychology I've talked

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to a bunch of those people I've talked

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to some of the founders and they're

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Outsiders they are outside group you

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know and that's okay somatic psychology

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the way you said it is awesome it's

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beautiful I get it that our psyche winds

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up manifesting

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self into our physical being and that

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when we move our be when we move our

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body in a certain way when we stretch it

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when we breathe when we do these

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postures stuff happens and that's what

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you're studying and that's what you're

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bringing to the table and again like I

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told people from the book the book is

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very practical in a lot of ways it's a

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toolbox you know it's like do this and

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notice this and see what happens in your

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making the case for somatic psychology

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if it is controversial or people who are

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apprehensive or saying hey that sounds

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like new-age crap one you have the sides

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to back it up but two you can go on the

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mat and see if that turns out to be true

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neuroplasticity

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so that's the principle that that our

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our brain is not fixated like the

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story's not over that but as we change

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our breaths our posture our our

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attention right which is all things that

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psychology addresses but in some many

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ways meditation and yoga address even

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even more effectively that we can

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actually change our brain as they change

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and let me just interject because we've

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talked about neuroplasticity a lot on

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this show because I think what a lot of

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folks don't realize is that it

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completely undermines science as we know

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it it completely undermines this model

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that we are these biological robots that

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we are purely a function of our brain

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that were nothing more and what

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neuroplasticity tells us is that I think

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therefore I am but I always get a little

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bit nervous even the way you cast it

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there when we hear neuroscience types

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talk about the discoveries of

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neuroplasticity I mean these nitwits

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discovered neuroplasticity in the same

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way that Christopher Columbus discovered

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America you know I mean our best

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evidence is that the continent over here

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was here before the guy sailed off on

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the water you know and that's the same

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thing with neuroplasticity this is how

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consciousness

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the brain is probably fundamental and is

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creating the brain in this co-creation

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process so this idea that now we can

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celebrate because neuroscience has

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ordained that they've discovered

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neuroplasticity it's [\h__\h]

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they've just stumbled across just like

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Christopher Columbus stumbled across

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what all the real deep wisdoms already

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knew is that we are in meshed in

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consciousness and that is reflecting

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down in our body and in our brain and

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that that's what's really going on right

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I agree with you and I attended a

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training last year with one of the

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world's famous neuroscientists and that

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conclusion of the three days was that

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social engagement is one of the most

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healing things in the world I mean

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that's his whole life of study and for

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me what I what I appreciate about

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neuroscience because I'm not really a

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neuroscience class I put it in the book

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because I feel like it's important to

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include is that by science validating

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and studying right the effects of

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consciousness the effects of yoga the

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effects of meditation it is enabling

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these things who have you know an access

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point in to work with veterans and

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00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:33,650
hospitals and you know even even as far

276
00:12:38,140 --> 00:12:36,050
as insurance I think will see young will

277
00:12:41,230 --> 00:12:38,150
see a time in our lives where insurance

278
00:12:44,860 --> 00:12:41,240
may support yoga a meditation like it's

279
00:12:47,620 --> 00:12:44,870
it's it's it's it's the stamp that's

280
00:12:49,180 --> 00:12:47,630
connecting these traditions to a more

281
00:12:50,769 --> 00:12:49,190
mainstream society because all the

282
00:12:54,490 --> 00:12:50,779
science is backing in and I think that's

283
00:12:58,449 --> 00:12:54,500
pretty great yeah maybe last one

284
00:13:00,519 --> 00:12:58,459
spirituality broadly let's talk about

285
00:13:03,010 --> 00:13:00,529
how we under what we understand when we

286
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:03,020
say spirituality I think that human

287
00:13:08,680 --> 00:13:05,410
beings have an essential deeper nature

288
00:13:10,060 --> 00:13:08,690
we can call spiritual or anything else

289
00:13:18,129 --> 00:13:10,070
and

290
00:13:21,999 --> 00:13:18,139
up to it is is is there for the taking

291
00:13:24,249 --> 00:13:22,009
great so the the basic flow of The

292
00:13:27,309 --> 00:13:24,259
Skeptical thing is based on these three

293
00:13:30,490 --> 00:13:27,319
ideas one follow the data and we'll

294
00:13:31,900 --> 00:13:30,500
start there you have talked about this

295
00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:31,910
interspersed that's already in the

296
00:13:39,220 --> 00:13:36,050
conversation but you go to great lengths

297
00:13:42,189 --> 00:13:39,230
to point out the data the science behind

298
00:13:45,519 --> 00:13:42,199
what you're claiming because a lot of

299
00:13:47,590 --> 00:13:45,529
folks coming at this not from the yoga

300
00:13:49,629 --> 00:13:47,600
community not from the non-dual

301
00:13:53,079 --> 00:13:49,639
community not from the spiritual

302
00:13:56,110 --> 00:13:53,089
community will you know you know because

303
00:13:58,749 --> 00:13:56,120
you live this they're like that's I'm

304
00:14:01,300 --> 00:13:58,759
sure make the case for yoga and

305
00:14:04,210 --> 00:14:01,310
psychology what's the science what's the

306
00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:04,220
most compelling science that you cite in

307
00:14:11,259 --> 00:14:08,170
the book that you think makes the case

308
00:14:14,170 --> 00:14:11,269
so with two doctoral students several

309
00:14:16,150 --> 00:14:14,180
years ago I worked to survey all the

310
00:14:19,420 --> 00:14:16,160
academic research to date at that time

311
00:14:21,579 --> 00:14:19,430
not only in yoga and psychology yoga

312
00:14:26,069 --> 00:14:21,589
neuroscience yoga and trauma trauma and

313
00:14:28,780 --> 00:14:26,079
psychology mindfulness and and

314
00:14:31,870 --> 00:14:28,790
psychology and so forth and we amassed

315
00:14:36,129 --> 00:14:31,880
over we we surveyed over 200 published

316
00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:36,139
academic articles and and we collected

317
00:14:42,220 --> 00:14:39,250
you know we summarized it for people and

318
00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:42,230
essentially there's ample scientific

319
00:14:48,069 --> 00:14:45,290
documentation at Yoga even without the

320
00:14:50,019 --> 00:14:48,079
psychology right this this most basic

321
00:14:52,929 --> 00:14:50,029
practice of physical postures for a

322
00:14:56,829 --> 00:14:52,939
period of time - all the extra goodies I

323
00:15:00,309 --> 00:14:56,839
think are so enhancing um addresses and

324
00:15:02,620 --> 00:15:00,319
has proven to be beneficial for just

325
00:15:05,980 --> 00:15:02,630
name a handful and anxiety and

326
00:15:08,850 --> 00:15:05,990
depression eating disorders suicide

327
00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:08,860
prevention autoimmune disorders

328
00:15:18,970 --> 00:15:14,930
well-being attention deficit disorders

329
00:15:20,290 --> 00:15:18,980
and so so there's a huge list all the

330
00:15:22,569 --> 00:15:20,300
sciences summarized and a

331
00:15:23,260 --> 00:15:22,579
people-friendly book and people-friendly

332
00:15:26,110 --> 00:15:23,270
way in the

333
00:15:29,170 --> 00:15:26,120
but basically the science has shown

334
00:15:31,330 --> 00:15:29,180
yoga's benefits on on most major

335
00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:31,340
categories in the DSM which is the

336
00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:33,410
diagnostic Statistical Manual that has

337
00:15:39,910 --> 00:15:37,130
ala the it's the most mainstream and

338
00:15:42,070 --> 00:15:39,920
useful in many ways texts to survey all

339
00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:42,080
the psychological disorders known in the

340
00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:44,930
Western world know the benefits all of

341
00:15:48,850 --> 00:15:46,130
them when used in the right way right

342
00:15:53,110 --> 00:15:48,860
quantity okay so the second part of this

343
00:15:53,980 --> 00:15:53,120
process the sceptical process is like

344
00:15:57,700 --> 00:15:53,990
I'm on a treasure hunt

345
00:16:01,570 --> 00:15:57,710
oh I said did you watch the video that I

346
00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:01,580
said - didn't have time was five minutes

347
00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:03,050
out of your day you would have seen the

348
00:16:06,250 --> 00:16:04,490
whole presentation so you would have

349
00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:06,260
known what's coming so you're waiting

350
00:16:11,380 --> 00:16:09,650
that's your decision to wing it so

351
00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:11,390
that's cool so the second part this

352
00:16:16,570 --> 00:16:13,490
process for sceptical so look for the

353
00:16:19,570 --> 00:16:16,580
conspiracy because really a true the

354
00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:19,580
conspiracy and truth go hand in hand

355
00:16:25,570 --> 00:16:23,570
truth seeking is about this bravery to

356
00:16:28,540 --> 00:16:25,580
follow the data wherever it leads

357
00:16:30,330 --> 00:16:28,550
because sometimes the data leads us in

358
00:16:33,610 --> 00:16:30,340
places that we wouldn't expect

359
00:16:36,340 --> 00:16:33,620
psychology is a classic example here is

360
00:16:37,690 --> 00:16:36,350
a book by this fantastic I know her is

361
00:16:41,110 --> 00:16:37,700
my book that I wrote a couple years ago

362
00:16:43,990 --> 00:16:41,120
and the point is that when science gets

363
00:16:48,330 --> 00:16:44,000
consciousness wrong like it has

364
00:16:50,910 --> 00:16:48,340
completely consistently systematically

365
00:16:53,020 --> 00:16:50,920
intentionally in that they know

366
00:16:55,660 --> 00:16:53,030
consciousness doesn't work in this

367
00:16:57,670 --> 00:16:55,670
strictly materialistic way but they act

368
00:17:00,040 --> 00:16:57,680
like it does because it serves certain

369
00:17:03,130 --> 00:17:00,050
benefits well when you get consciousness

370
00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:03,140
wrong nothing else really makes sense

371
00:17:08,110 --> 00:17:05,530
and that certainly is the case with

372
00:17:10,870 --> 00:17:08,120
psychology I mean if we're going to look

373
00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:10,880
at psychology more broadly and I love

374
00:17:17,199 --> 00:17:13,970
and appreciate your work as a psychology

375
00:17:20,770 --> 00:17:17,209
outsider but let's get real with the way

376
00:17:23,829 --> 00:17:20,780
that most people encounter psychology or

377
00:17:26,470 --> 00:17:23,839
may encounter therapy particularly if

378
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:26,480
they're experiencing the kind of

379
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:29,410
problems the kind of issues the kind of

380
00:17:34,690 --> 00:17:32,330
spiritual emergency kind of situations

381
00:17:36,540 --> 00:17:34,700
that thankfully you're there to help

382
00:17:38,910 --> 00:17:36,550
support people in

383
00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:38,920
most people go to the doctor and they're

384
00:17:42,810 --> 00:17:41,410
just in the system man they're getting a

385
00:17:45,120 --> 00:17:42,820
firm but they're getting a pill and

386
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:45,130
they're saying take this they're still

387
00:17:49,410 --> 00:17:47,530
getting put down maybe it's not quite as

388
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:49,420
direct it's more subtle but it's like

389
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:51,490
you're crazy there's something wrong

390
00:17:58,100 --> 00:17:54,490
with you and until we're real about this

391
00:18:01,230 --> 00:17:58,110
and real about the causes of why

392
00:18:04,230 --> 00:18:01,240
psychology has don't go down this farm

393
00:18:06,870 --> 00:18:04,240
illogical model and has pushed it even

394
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:06,880
when the data comes back and says hey

395
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:09,970
you know depression mild depression

396
00:18:18,090 --> 00:18:13,330
these multibillion-dollar industry it is

397
00:18:20,220 --> 00:18:18,100
not more effective than placebo but we

398
00:18:22,830 --> 00:18:20,230
still sell billions of dollars of this

399
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:22,840
so I love that you say maybe it will

400
00:18:25,710 --> 00:18:25,210
just grow out of this and keep going

401
00:18:33,330 --> 00:18:25,720
guys

402
00:18:35,790 --> 00:18:33,340
financial interest including things the

403
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:35,800
way they are so what are the changes

404
00:18:42,030 --> 00:18:39,010
that you've seen in your career and how

405
00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:42,040
can we how can we expedite it and don't

406
00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:44,050
we need to call these people out it's

407
00:18:51,150 --> 00:18:48,250
not all you know join hands and sing

408
00:18:53,070 --> 00:18:51,160
Kumbaya I mean there's some devious

409
00:18:57,780 --> 00:18:53,080
stuff going out there going on out there

410
00:18:59,970 --> 00:18:57,790
in psychology I agree with with

411
00:19:02,670 --> 00:18:59,980
everything you said right when when we

412
00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:02,680
when we talk about calling these people

413
00:19:10,530 --> 00:19:06,130
out you know it brings an image of some

414
00:19:14,850 --> 00:19:10,540
amorphous them and and for me like I

415
00:19:18,930 --> 00:19:14,860
don't know how to do that so I do what I

416
00:19:20,460 --> 00:19:18,940
do know how to do which is I know who

417
00:19:22,050 --> 00:19:20,470
they are because I talk to them all the

418
00:19:24,450 --> 00:19:22,060
time one of the things I try and do is

419
00:19:26,570 --> 00:19:24,460
invite them on the show and I get NYU

420
00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:26,580
professors of psychology I've had many

421
00:19:31,860 --> 00:19:29,170
psychology professors and they will say

422
00:19:33,990 --> 00:19:31,870
categorically that you're that I'm wrong

423
00:19:35,430 --> 00:19:34,000
and that consciousness is a function of

424
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:35,440
the brain and here's how it works and

425
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:37,930
the neurological model is winning and

426
00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:40,210
all the rest of that so it's it's not

427
00:19:45,300 --> 00:19:42,370
just playing around when I say them and

428
00:19:49,919 --> 00:19:45,310
us and us it's an ideological divide

429
00:19:55,649 --> 00:19:49,929
that is if you're giving people

430
00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:55,659
high doses of psycho pharmacy crap then

431
00:20:00,060 --> 00:19:57,850
you're doing that because you've bought

432
00:20:02,009 --> 00:20:00,070
into that model you're them that's not

433
00:20:04,470 --> 00:20:02,019
to say that there aren't places in

434
00:20:08,940 --> 00:20:04,480
instances where it's useful but I mean

435
00:20:11,549 --> 00:20:08,950
come on there is a BEM yeah yeah no I

436
00:20:13,590 --> 00:20:11,559
don't I don't disagree I I was just

437
00:20:16,139 --> 00:20:13,600
saying for me when I look at that I

438
00:20:19,019 --> 00:20:16,149
don't know what to do but when I so

439
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:19,029
maybe this is my optimist but I look at

440
00:20:27,180 --> 00:20:22,450
what I can do right and I can research I

441
00:20:29,549 --> 00:20:27,190
can write I can share I can you know

442
00:20:31,499 --> 00:20:29,559
touch individuals I can touch groups I

443
00:20:33,539 --> 00:20:31,509
can touch larger people larger amounts

444
00:20:35,970 --> 00:20:33,549
of people through writing and when it's

445
00:20:38,070 --> 00:20:35,980
done in a very grounded pragmatic way

446
00:20:41,609 --> 00:20:38,080
with some scientific research included

447
00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:41,619
it's gonna speak more effectively and so

448
00:20:46,139 --> 00:20:42,369
I don't have the answer to your

449
00:20:47,999 --> 00:20:46,149
questions it's like I try to attend to

450
00:20:52,409 --> 00:20:48,009
my own garden and you know include as

451
00:20:55,619 --> 00:20:52,419
many people and that as I can and when I

452
00:20:57,659 --> 00:20:55,629
used to work at California Institute of

453
00:21:00,450 --> 00:20:57,669
integral studies graduate school in San

454
00:21:01,879 --> 00:21:00,460
Francisco I for many years I put

455
00:21:03,930 --> 00:21:01,889
together different lecture series on

456
00:21:05,940 --> 00:21:03,940
controversial topics and spirituality

457
00:21:08,340 --> 00:21:05,950
and I would invite both sides to speak

458
00:21:11,159 --> 00:21:08,350
and I always enjoyed that and and try to

459
00:21:13,710 --> 00:21:11,169
make some bridges and now is the mother

460
00:21:15,570 --> 00:21:13,720
of a young child I it's just not what

461
00:21:18,989 --> 00:21:15,580
I'm doing right now but I'm all for you

462
00:21:21,210 --> 00:21:18,999
doing it you know I'm always a little

463
00:21:23,850 --> 00:21:21,220
bit leery when people say that say hey

464
00:21:26,639 --> 00:21:23,860
you know that's not my thing but I'm all

465
00:21:29,009 --> 00:21:26,649
for you doing it it's like I think we're

466
00:21:31,139 --> 00:21:29,019
all doing it all the time I think that's

467
00:21:35,639 --> 00:21:31,149
the truth-seeking process and I think

468
00:21:38,369 --> 00:21:35,649
that it you you like I say I am a yogi a

469
00:21:40,470 --> 00:21:38,379
better yogi for a lot of years thousands

470
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:40,480
of classes and when I show up in the

471
00:21:46,289 --> 00:21:43,690
class I think these issues are are there

472
00:21:48,239 --> 00:21:46,299
and are very relevant to people and are

473
00:21:52,109 --> 00:21:48,249
going on with going on with people all

474
00:21:55,950 --> 00:21:52,119
the time in that the way I always put it

475
00:21:59,999 --> 00:21:55,960
is the how can this be questioned mm-hmm

476
00:22:03,010 --> 00:22:00,009
so it's great that you are this entry

477
00:22:05,530 --> 00:22:03,020
point this diving board into the pool

478
00:22:07,780 --> 00:22:05,540
but when they get in the pool a lot of

479
00:22:10,330 --> 00:22:07,790
people pop their head up and they go

480
00:22:13,299 --> 00:22:10,340
wait a minute how can this be

481
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:13,309
I've been told all this other stuff my

482
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:16,010
life maybe through my parents maybe down

483
00:22:22,299 --> 00:22:18,770
at church maybe through my doctor I have

484
00:22:26,910 --> 00:22:22,309
these conflict in views how do I resolve

485
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:26,920
those and I think part of the job is to

486
00:22:31,870 --> 00:22:30,170
lay out that landscape and say you have

487
00:22:35,020 --> 00:22:31,880
to understand that there are other

488
00:22:38,169 --> 00:22:35,030
forces out there that are acting upon

489
00:22:41,799 --> 00:22:38,179
you and you can decide you know which

490
00:22:43,419 --> 00:22:41,809
what your reality is but to pretend that

491
00:22:46,360 --> 00:22:43,429
they're not there I don't think works

492
00:22:49,330 --> 00:22:46,370
and I guess that would lead me into the

493
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:49,340
next so just to back up on that point I

494
00:22:53,919 --> 00:22:52,610
mean I when I say I'm glad that you're

495
00:22:56,590 --> 00:22:53,929
doing that I don't see that

496
00:22:59,799 --> 00:22:56,600
contradiction I mean I use know most

497
00:23:02,950 --> 00:22:59,809
minutes of the days of my life and I'm

498
00:23:05,530 --> 00:23:02,960
to try to in addition to you know taking

499
00:23:08,860 --> 00:23:05,540
care of who I'm who I'm charged to take

500
00:23:12,220 --> 00:23:08,870
care of to to try to support what I

501
00:23:16,390 --> 00:23:12,230
believe in I just and I think I you know

502
00:23:20,110 --> 00:23:16,400
I I I talked to people on all sides of

503
00:23:23,470 --> 00:23:20,120
the spectrum frequently in a public

504
00:23:28,390 --> 00:23:23,480
setting I just don't have a vision of

505
00:23:32,380 --> 00:23:28,400
how to take on them and change it more

506
00:23:34,900 --> 00:23:32,390
than the ways that I do it that is

507
00:23:37,780 --> 00:23:34,910
totally fair and it's more than fair

508
00:23:40,299 --> 00:23:37,790
because the other part of this

509
00:23:43,230 --> 00:23:40,309
conspiratorial thing that I think is

510
00:23:47,290 --> 00:23:43,240
important to put on the table is the

511
00:23:51,150 --> 00:23:47,300
conspiracy surrounding spirituality and

512
00:23:54,100 --> 00:23:51,160
it's something that you have really

513
00:23:58,169 --> 00:23:54,110
you've dived into quite deeply and

514
00:24:00,910 --> 00:23:58,179
profoundly and and with some real

515
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:00,920
sensitivity that that I don't see a lot

516
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:03,890
of people addressing but if I can kind

517
00:24:09,669 --> 00:24:05,890
of set the table and kind of my crude

518
00:24:12,700 --> 00:24:09,679
skeptic away it's that the coexist thing

519
00:24:15,100 --> 00:24:12,710
is [\h__\h] at it's at its at some core

520
00:24:16,269 --> 00:24:15,110
level that most people don't acknowledge

521
00:24:19,609 --> 00:24:16,279
and

522
00:24:22,009 --> 00:24:19,619
selling eleven-year-old girls into

523
00:24:27,289 --> 00:24:22,019
marriage is not something we should

524
00:24:30,159 --> 00:24:27,299
coexist with mutilation the sexual abuse

525
00:24:34,190 --> 00:24:30,169
of children not something we should

526
00:24:37,099 --> 00:24:34,200
coexist with that isn't the goal the

527
00:24:39,409 --> 00:24:37,109
goal is to develop as you so beautifully

528
00:24:44,629 --> 00:24:39,419
talked about in your books a discernment

529
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:44,639
a discernment that is both spiritual and

530
00:24:50,599 --> 00:24:48,330
practical in terms of ways that

531
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:50,609
psychology can tell us that we can

532
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:53,850
develop morals that are beyond some

533
00:24:59,299 --> 00:24:56,369
little book that's old dusty book that

534
00:25:00,799 --> 00:24:59,309
was written long ago you've written and

535
00:25:02,330 --> 00:25:00,809
thought a lot about this and have

536
00:25:06,349 --> 00:25:02,340
brought some great stuff to the tele

537
00:25:08,869 --> 00:25:06,359
table tell me where you see it at again

538
00:25:10,340 --> 00:25:08,879
not in the kind of crew to beat somebody

539
00:25:13,310 --> 00:25:10,350
over the head way that I said but maybe

540
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:13,320
in your own way this issue of spiritual

541
00:25:20,810 --> 00:25:15,450
discernment and how it manifests for you

542
00:25:22,989 --> 00:25:20,820
and your clients so as you mentioned

543
00:25:25,249 --> 00:25:22,999
right at the beginning the interview my

544
00:25:26,690 --> 00:25:25,259
I'm not my first exposure to

545
00:25:29,299 --> 00:25:26,700
spirituality my first exposure

546
00:25:31,759 --> 00:25:29,309
spirituality which I which I tell the

547
00:25:34,669 --> 00:25:31,769
story is on myself and several of my

548
00:25:36,619 --> 00:25:34,679
books were with were wearing my own

549
00:25:38,389 --> 00:25:36,629
psychological wounds were mixing with my

550
00:25:40,580 --> 00:25:38,399
own spiritual yearnings and I was

551
00:25:42,619 --> 00:25:40,590
following alcoholic shamans down in

552
00:25:45,109 --> 00:25:42,629
Mexico and getting myself into all kinds

553
00:25:46,759 --> 00:25:45,119
of gnarly situations that I you know

554
00:25:52,009 --> 00:25:46,769
eventually came to support other people

555
00:25:54,739 --> 00:25:52,019
and in doing but by the time I was 25 I

556
00:26:00,560 --> 00:25:54,749
spent a year in the presence of of a

557
00:26:04,310 --> 00:26:00,570
great yogi who who was was so vast in

558
00:26:06,139 --> 00:26:04,320
his being and and not that it just sort

559
00:26:09,139 --> 00:26:06,149
of it's just it not only raised the bar

560
00:26:13,849 --> 00:26:09,149
it just took the bar off it like it

561
00:26:16,399 --> 00:26:13,859
changed my view permanently so again

562
00:26:19,549 --> 00:26:16,409
being based in in Northern California I

563
00:26:21,590 --> 00:26:19,559
I live in this in the center of write

564
00:26:26,299 --> 00:26:21,600
the whole range of spiritual activity

565
00:26:28,129 --> 00:26:26,309
and and other activity so from from

566
00:26:28,850 --> 00:26:28,139
right at the beginning I just felt like

567
00:26:31,299 --> 00:26:28,860
it was

568
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:31,309
to get really pragmatic and

569
00:26:39,130 --> 00:26:34,530
down-to-earth and separate separate out

570
00:26:46,340 --> 00:26:39,140
strands and and all my work on I'm

571
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:46,350
pointing out I was on the path and and

572
00:26:52,730 --> 00:26:49,170
places of divergence and it's it's like

573
00:26:56,419 --> 00:26:52,740
all in the surface of of just greater

574
00:27:00,500 --> 00:26:56,429
clarity I don't know I mean people are

575
00:27:03,650 --> 00:27:00,510
encountering encountering spirituality

576
00:27:07,700 --> 00:27:03,660
packaged in some very potentially

577
00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:07,710
dangerous destructive ways don't we need

578
00:27:13,730 --> 00:27:11,130
to acknowledge that you know I met you

579
00:27:15,230 --> 00:27:13,740
through Rick Archer who is just awesome

580
00:27:19,159 --> 00:27:15,240
but we're going to talk about his show

581
00:27:22,340 --> 00:27:19,169
Buddha in the gas pump in a minute like

582
00:27:25,340 --> 00:27:22,350
2,000 pages of published material about

583
00:27:29,060 --> 00:27:25,350
encountering the obstacles and I mean

584
00:27:31,490 --> 00:27:29,070
that's what I've done but let me I get

585
00:27:34,220 --> 00:27:31,500
that but I want to give you a concrete

586
00:27:36,980 --> 00:27:34,230
example I just got an email not too long

587
00:27:38,900 --> 00:27:36,990
ago from someone who said hey love the

588
00:27:41,299 --> 00:27:38,910
show like how you're kind of breaking

589
00:27:43,220 --> 00:27:41,309
this stuff down but I'm kind of

590
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:43,230
wondering I'm kind of in a little bit of

591
00:27:49,370 --> 00:27:46,850
a you know upset here because I saw the

592
00:27:52,580 --> 00:27:49,380
Netflix documentary very popular in out

593
00:27:56,750 --> 00:27:52,590
wild wild country about Osho and about

594
00:27:59,299 --> 00:27:56,760
the cult in Oregon and her point was as

595
00:28:00,080 --> 00:27:59,309
a true spiritual seeker say I don't know

596
00:28:04,250 --> 00:28:00,090
what to do

597
00:28:07,789 --> 00:28:04,260
I heard that Osho you know did have a

598
00:28:09,380 --> 00:28:07,799
spiritual gift and was able to enlighten

599
00:28:10,669 --> 00:28:09,390
give this people give people the

600
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:10,679
experience of Awakening and

601
00:28:15,710 --> 00:28:12,450
enlightenment with just the touch or a

602
00:28:18,940 --> 00:28:15,720
look as we hear so many times with gurus

603
00:28:21,650 --> 00:28:18,950
who are then found to have other

604
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:21,660
problems in their lives and not be

605
00:28:29,299 --> 00:28:25,770
complete people or I think we need to be

606
00:28:32,810 --> 00:28:29,309
able to go is not address that from this

607
00:28:34,970 --> 00:28:32,820
kind of new agey kind of well and I

608
00:28:37,490 --> 00:28:34,980
don't even integrate with what Rick says

609
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:37,500
you know hey take what you can and leave

610
00:28:42,530 --> 00:28:39,530
the rest kind of thing it's like oh

611
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:42,540
shell was a creep

612
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:46,530
he did creepy things to people when we

613
00:28:52,310 --> 00:28:48,810
come at stuff from I think that's what

614
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:52,320
psychology can kind of ground us in in

615
00:28:58,550 --> 00:28:55,530
some ways is this ability to kind of see

616
00:29:02,480 --> 00:28:58,560
[\h__\h] the way that it is and call it that

617
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:02,490
and that's where I see you potentially

618
00:29:07,550 --> 00:29:04,890
operating and bringing something to this

619
00:29:10,190 --> 00:29:07,560
table where you can have a foot in both

620
00:29:13,580 --> 00:29:10,200
but then firmly take a stand and say

621
00:29:17,210 --> 00:29:13,590
look he was a creep and it's pretty easy

622
00:29:19,460 --> 00:29:17,220
to see that Scientology is [\h__\h] we

623
00:29:21,860 --> 00:29:19,470
don't need to beat around the bush and

624
00:29:24,620 --> 00:29:21,870
you know well you know respect

625
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:24,630
everyone's beliefs know there's a

626
00:29:30,350 --> 00:29:26,490
certain practical part of that woman who

627
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:30,360
wrote me the email as well as what a lot

628
00:29:37,250 --> 00:29:33,090
of people deal with and spirituality and

629
00:29:39,890 --> 00:29:37,260
yoga does make it more difficult when we

630
00:29:42,380 --> 00:29:39,900
have these kind of unbelievable

631
00:29:45,350 --> 00:29:42,390
experiences of opening of awakening of

632
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:45,360
deepening but do you get what I'm

633
00:29:50,510 --> 00:29:47,610
talking about or does any of that relate

634
00:29:52,190 --> 00:29:50,520
to I'm following you following you I'm

635
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:52,200
not sure where you want me to jump in

636
00:29:58,340 --> 00:29:55,290
here but I hear you was a joke creep can

637
00:30:00,830 --> 00:29:58,350
we say that Rick's TM teacher was here

638
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:00,840
creep he was a creep they still got all

639
00:30:05,870 --> 00:30:03,210
these people that are still in TM go

640
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:05,880
read the guy's history he was doing

641
00:30:12,380 --> 00:30:08,730
inappropriate stuff all over the place

642
00:30:16,010 --> 00:30:12,390
why can't we just call this out when we

643
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:16,020
don't when we act like well you know not

644
00:30:24,470 --> 00:30:21,330
sure I don't think it serves anyone yeah

645
00:30:26,900 --> 00:30:24,480
I mean if I honestly right so when I'm

646
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:26,910
not doing something public or writing

647
00:30:30,860 --> 00:30:28,770
I'm working in a and a hundred percent

648
00:30:33,380 --> 00:30:30,870
medically sealed confidential container

649
00:30:38,990 --> 00:30:33,390
that's the ethics of my profession all

650
00:30:42,170 --> 00:30:39,000
right so I I know a lot I say a lot that

651
00:30:44,450 --> 00:30:42,180
I bet that it only gets translated into

652
00:30:47,380 --> 00:30:44,460
bait principles and books that protect

653
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:47,390
people because that's me being ethical

654
00:30:52,970 --> 00:30:50,730
but I've I've dealt few years ago I

655
00:30:55,150 --> 00:30:52,980
dealt with the fallout of a spiritual

656
00:30:59,650 --> 00:30:55,160
scandal that resulted in the young man's

657
00:31:01,570 --> 00:30:59,660
I mean it gets really real you know it's

658
00:31:03,130 --> 00:31:01,580
one thing like when people are hurt and

659
00:31:05,980 --> 00:31:03,140
all their usual power struggles and the

660
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:05,990
scandals and I dealt with this for 20

661
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:07,970
years in my private practice and as an

662
00:31:11,830 --> 00:31:09,650
author but then when people start

663
00:31:15,190 --> 00:31:11,840
getting killed right and dying that's a

664
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:15,200
whole nother level and it's it's sobered

665
00:31:22,930 --> 00:31:19,250
me in moments beyond measure right and I

666
00:31:26,550 --> 00:31:22,940
am always uncompromised and in speaking

667
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:26,560
what what I feel in those situations so

668
00:31:32,350 --> 00:31:29,210
they repealed what do you what do you

669
00:31:35,350 --> 00:31:32,360
feel about Osho when I feel that Osho is

670
00:31:36,940 --> 00:31:35,360
well I'm not gonna base it just on wild

671
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:36,950
wild country right which is our new fad

672
00:31:42,100 --> 00:31:38,810
right there's a new there's a new

673
00:31:44,050 --> 00:31:42,110
documentary based on something that tell

674
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:44,060
I've studied it for quite some time and

675
00:31:47,950 --> 00:31:45,890
read many accounts I thought they did an

676
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:47,960
X and the job so anything else you want

677
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:50,090
to bring to the table I get that there's

678
00:31:53,500 --> 00:31:51,410
plenty of people who said they had an

679
00:31:55,330 --> 00:31:53,510
incredible experience with Osho I don't

680
00:31:58,390 --> 00:31:55,340
think that matters I mean I think that

681
00:32:01,710 --> 00:31:58,400
that's what I'm getting at is that so

682
00:32:10,270 --> 00:32:01,720
tell me tell me how you break it down I

683
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:10,280
break it down and that there it's really

684
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:11,930
tricky like I'm gonna I'm gonna jump

685
00:32:15,730 --> 00:32:14,210
over to another controversial example

686
00:32:18,970 --> 00:32:15,740
which would be chögyam trungpa rinpoche

687
00:32:20,620 --> 00:32:18,980
right who for people who don't know he

688
00:32:25,540 --> 00:32:20,630
was a bettin buddhist master he was an

689
00:32:27,970 --> 00:32:25,550
alcoholic he was a womanizer he probably

690
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:27,980
did more single-handedly to bring

691
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:30,770
Tibetan Buddhism to the West than anyone

692
00:32:39,790 --> 00:32:36,170
else ever his some of his major his

693
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:39,800
closest students were people like Pema

694
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:40,370
Chodron

695
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:43,610
Reggie ray some extraordinary teachers

696
00:32:50,710 --> 00:32:46,970
he founded Naropa University right in in

697
00:32:53,140 --> 00:32:50,720
Boulder Colorado so so this man right

698
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:53,150
who was clearly flawed and there's

699
00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:55,010
wonderful books out about you know from

700
00:32:59,770 --> 00:32:57,530
his his wife who calls it all out I mean

701
00:33:04,820 --> 00:32:59,780
I don't think and most people are

702
00:33:07,250 --> 00:33:04,830
confused about that and yet

703
00:33:09,889 --> 00:33:07,260
all right Hema children alone like that

704
00:33:12,350 --> 00:33:09,899
the tens of thousands of people who have

705
00:33:13,970 --> 00:33:12,360
still managed to benefit right in spite

706
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:13,980
of what you would call a creep it

707
00:33:18,740 --> 00:33:15,330
doesn't make it less creepy it doesn't

708
00:33:20,419 --> 00:33:18,750
make any person he hurt you no less

709
00:33:22,730 --> 00:33:20,429
affected it doesn't make it any more

710
00:33:25,490 --> 00:33:22,740
right but there's a certain amount of

711
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:25,500
complexity in in these situations

712
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:27,690
because sometimes there's a creepy

713
00:33:33,799 --> 00:33:29,970
teacher and there's really good students

714
00:33:36,470 --> 00:33:33,809
who are earnest and and burning with

715
00:33:38,870 --> 00:33:36,480
passion and eager for discernment so in

716
00:33:41,419 --> 00:33:38,880
spite of this creepy teacher they derive

717
00:33:43,100 --> 00:33:41,429
tremendous benefit and then the teacher

718
00:33:45,289 --> 00:33:43,110
may have a scandal and it falls apart

719
00:33:48,169 --> 00:33:45,299
and then these people band together and

720
00:33:49,610 --> 00:33:48,179
become lifelong allies on the path and

721
00:33:52,250 --> 00:33:49,620
support each other and become more

722
00:33:55,159 --> 00:33:52,260
discerning because of it so I guess I

723
00:33:59,389 --> 00:33:55,169
want to say that that there's there

724
00:34:01,549 --> 00:33:59,399
there is while there's an aspect of

725
00:34:03,669 --> 00:34:01,559
black and white I mean I don't hesitate

726
00:34:06,409 --> 00:34:03,679
to call right from wrong there's a

727
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:06,419
another layer of complexity that

728
00:34:11,180 --> 00:34:08,970
coexists not you know in your coax this

729
00:34:14,899 --> 00:34:11,190
little new agey thing but but the

730
00:34:18,139 --> 00:34:14,909
coexist because and where I bring it

731
00:34:19,730 --> 00:34:18,149
back to is like we have to if we're

732
00:34:21,740 --> 00:34:19,740
gonna enter into these spiritual

733
00:34:23,690 --> 00:34:21,750
pursuits we have to take deep imagery of

734
00:34:25,399 --> 00:34:23,700
ourselves I say in my new book I would

735
00:34:28,129 --> 00:34:25,409
like every single yoga teacher and

736
00:34:29,570 --> 00:34:28,139
series practitioner to undergo a series

737
00:34:32,839 --> 00:34:29,580
of depth psychology in their lives

738
00:34:35,419 --> 00:34:32,849
because if we do that and we understand

739
00:34:37,490 --> 00:34:35,429
our own motivations the the chances of

740
00:34:41,270 --> 00:34:37,500
us falling into a scandalous situation

741
00:34:44,030 --> 00:34:41,280
are infinitesimally weird like they're

742
00:34:45,829 --> 00:34:44,040
reduced massively right I began my

743
00:34:48,740 --> 00:34:45,839
spiritual search at an eighteen nineteen

744
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:48,750
stumble into all of these replicas you

745
00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:50,490
know these teachers that replicated

746
00:34:55,460 --> 00:34:52,649
everything screwed up inside of my own

747
00:34:56,930 --> 00:34:55,470
psyche nowadays I'm not the least bit

748
00:34:58,490 --> 00:34:56,940
worried about falling into those kind of

749
00:35:00,770 --> 00:34:58,500
hands because I understand what's

750
00:35:03,380 --> 00:35:00,780
motivating me and I understand where I'm

751
00:35:05,329 --> 00:35:03,390
gonna fall and so it's like that's the

752
00:35:07,070 --> 00:35:05,339
empowerment like take it back and that's

753
00:35:08,180 --> 00:35:07,080
what I love my books are about take it

754
00:35:12,109 --> 00:35:08,190
back into your own hands

755
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:12,119
and and then you be yeah you become the

756
00:35:17,450 --> 00:35:15,450
discerning person on the path and your

757
00:35:18,390 --> 00:35:17,460
chances of falling into something that's

758
00:35:21,359 --> 00:35:18,400
gonna

759
00:35:22,829 --> 00:35:21,369
you at that level are very small that

760
00:35:24,420 --> 00:35:22,839
was great Mariana I really appreciate

761
00:35:27,269 --> 00:35:24,430
how you're holding these two separate

762
00:35:29,819 --> 00:35:27,279
ideas together one is that we have to

763
00:35:32,099 --> 00:35:29,829
take control it's kind of like the new

764
00:35:35,099 --> 00:35:32,109
model for medicine right you can no

765
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:35,109
longer go to the doctor and say doc what

766
00:35:38,250 --> 00:35:35,890
should I do

767
00:35:41,220 --> 00:35:38,260
man if you're not googling your butt off

768
00:35:42,799 --> 00:35:41,230
before you go there forget it and we all

769
00:35:45,420 --> 00:35:42,809
know that it's a shared responsibility

770
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:45,430
and that's what I hear you saying about

771
00:35:50,849 --> 00:35:48,130
how our spirituality needs to be it

772
00:35:52,859 --> 00:35:50,859
needs to be a shared responsibility we

773
00:35:55,319 --> 00:35:52,869
don't go give our power to Osho we don't

774
00:35:58,529 --> 00:35:55,329
go give our power to the Catholic Church

775
00:36:00,930 --> 00:35:58,539
to anybody there's enough great

776
00:36:03,839 --> 00:36:00,940
information including the kind of stuff

777
00:36:07,230 --> 00:36:03,849
that you're talking about that allows us

778
00:36:09,720 --> 00:36:07,240
to create our own path follow our own

779
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:09,730
path and find people that can help us

780
00:36:16,470 --> 00:36:13,210
along the path without destroying us and

781
00:36:18,569 --> 00:36:16,480
pushing us two steps back so I love what

782
00:36:21,299 --> 00:36:18,579
you just said and I love how we can find

783
00:36:24,450 --> 00:36:21,309
that in your books so here's the third

784
00:36:25,950 --> 00:36:24,460
kind of area that I like to cover and

785
00:36:28,410 --> 00:36:25,960
I'm going to tee up for this discussion

786
00:36:30,210 --> 00:36:28,420
and that's that in this process the

787
00:36:32,700 --> 00:36:30,220
skeptical process we're following the

788
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:32,710
data science is going to help us even

789
00:36:36,809 --> 00:36:34,450
though science is clunky and outdated

790
00:36:39,539 --> 00:36:36,819
with their crazy model of consciousness

791
00:36:41,519 --> 00:36:39,549
which is just absurd still the tools we

792
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:41,529
want like you bring forth in your book

793
00:36:45,029 --> 00:36:42,970
and the studies and showing their

794
00:36:46,799 --> 00:36:45,039
benefits are great the conspiracy

795
00:36:49,170 --> 00:36:46,809
important we can't just take everything

796
00:36:51,569 --> 00:36:49,180
as it's given to us we have to look

797
00:36:55,230 --> 00:36:51,579
deeper but then the third point for me

798
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:55,240
is to find the deep spirituality the

799
00:36:58,430 --> 00:36:56,410
spirituality that we're talking about

800
00:37:02,370 --> 00:36:58,440
our personal spirituality beyond

801
00:37:04,289 --> 00:37:02,380
religion beyond Dogma but in particular

802
00:37:08,180 --> 00:37:04,299
what I think would be interesting to

803
00:37:12,630 --> 00:37:08,190
dialogue with you about is the aspect of

804
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:12,640
the spiritual that does marry with the

805
00:37:20,670 --> 00:37:16,690
non-dual and the yogic in a way that I

806
00:37:23,130 --> 00:37:20,680
think you and I can talk about in kind

807
00:37:25,529 --> 00:37:23,140
of an interesting new way I mentioned

808
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:25,539
before that I really appreciate the work

809
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:28,890
that Rick does at food at the gas pump

810
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:32,610
I just want to tee up two quotes that I

811
00:37:37,970 --> 00:37:34,770
think will bring this idea home one is

812
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:37,980
from of course the hugging saying this

813
00:37:43,730 --> 00:37:40,650
beautiful person that works tirelessly

814
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:43,740
you know 18 hours a day hugging people

815
00:37:49,010 --> 00:37:47,610
and digging latrines in India but the

816
00:37:50,180 --> 00:37:49,020
point and people may get tired of

817
00:37:53,810 --> 00:37:50,190
hearing me say this but I think it's

818
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:53,820
such a profound point so the devotees go

819
00:37:58,760 --> 00:37:55,170
to Amen they go

820
00:38:01,520 --> 00:37:58,770
Amma you know you you say that we're not

821
00:38:05,060 --> 00:38:01,530
of this world and that spirituality is

822
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:05,070
is bigger and yet you're working

823
00:38:09,410 --> 00:38:07,170
tirelessly for this world you know

824
00:38:13,910 --> 00:38:09,420
you're working so hard what is it

825
00:38:20,870 --> 00:38:13,920
it must supposedly says world what world

826
00:38:25,460 --> 00:38:20,880
I get that that propels me forward in a

827
00:38:27,380 --> 00:38:25,470
way that I guess I kind of would I don't

828
00:38:30,110 --> 00:38:27,390
want to say take issue but I'd contrast

829
00:38:33,110 --> 00:38:30,120
that with the quote that you had at your

830
00:38:35,420 --> 00:38:33,120
book that says people come to me saying

831
00:38:38,690 --> 00:38:35,430
they want truth and what they really

832
00:38:42,260 --> 00:38:38,700
want is happiness so let's play around

833
00:38:46,700 --> 00:38:42,270
with that idea how much are we to be in

834
00:38:53,870 --> 00:38:46,710
this world and how much are we to be not

835
00:38:57,020 --> 00:38:53,880
in this world yeah so so Rick Wright who

836
00:39:00,830 --> 00:38:57,030
I very much enjoy collaborating with and

837
00:39:02,420 --> 00:39:00,840
any of the ways that I do he's exploring

838
00:39:04,580 --> 00:39:02,430
more of this non dual approach to

839
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:04,590
psychotherapy this the traditions that

840
00:39:09,770 --> 00:39:07,530
I've studied in both as a Jewish person

841
00:39:13,250 --> 00:39:09,780
and my studies of Buddhism in my studies

842
00:39:17,690 --> 00:39:13,260
of yoga have been was more in the

843
00:39:19,790 --> 00:39:17,700
tantric traditions and I know we can't

844
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:19,800
go back we can't go back we just talked

845
00:39:24,110 --> 00:39:22,290
about that the Jewish tradition let's

846
00:39:26,780 --> 00:39:24,120
talk about the Torah and how it's all

847
00:39:29,720 --> 00:39:26,790
[\h__\h] and the whole Yahweh thing was

848
00:39:31,610 --> 00:39:29,730
just created it we can go back and trace

849
00:39:35,610 --> 00:39:31,620
it I've talked to the scholars that can

850
00:39:40,470 --> 00:39:38,010
no you're talking about well the point

851
00:39:42,240 --> 00:39:40,480
is I don't understand the distinction

852
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:42,250
when people say wait a minute

853
00:39:49,500 --> 00:39:47,290
I'm from Tantra so say is that what I

854
00:39:52,500 --> 00:39:49,510
appreciate about the Tantra perspective

855
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:52,510
that I do find in Judaism and I do find

856
00:39:57,180 --> 00:39:54,490
him Buddhism and I do find in yoga I

857
00:40:00,540 --> 00:39:57,190
understand the religious [\h__\h] and

858
00:40:03,150 --> 00:40:00,550
all of that is that that that

859
00:40:05,370 --> 00:40:03,160
transformation takes place like here and

860
00:40:07,650 --> 00:40:05,380
in this world so I'm not I'm not about

861
00:40:08,910 --> 00:40:07,660
trying to leave this world I can

862
00:40:12,090 --> 00:40:08,920
appreciate the what world

863
00:40:14,010 --> 00:40:12,100
um the what world that we know where

864
00:40:16,170 --> 00:40:14,020
should where Alma is going with that but

865
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:16,180
but even when I was living in an ashram

866
00:40:19,980 --> 00:40:18,010
and young woman a girlfriend and I were

867
00:40:21,780 --> 00:40:19,990
25 and we used to steal out in the woods

868
00:40:24,210 --> 00:40:21,790
and say like I'll just talk about

869
00:40:25,860 --> 00:40:24,220
getting off the wheel like I like the

870
00:40:27,380 --> 00:40:25,870
wheel I don't want to get off the wheel

871
00:40:30,930 --> 00:40:27,390
why are we trying to get off the wheel

872
00:40:33,690 --> 00:40:30,940
so I've always approached spirituality

873
00:40:36,300 --> 00:40:33,700
as of this world and and what I like

874
00:40:38,460 --> 00:40:36,310
about the mystic side of the Judaism

875
00:40:41,070 --> 00:40:38,470
that I do participate in is it takes it

876
00:40:43,110 --> 00:40:41,080
all back here it's not about leaving

877
00:40:47,070 --> 00:40:43,120
this or transcending this it's it's

878
00:40:48,930 --> 00:40:47,080
taking it all and bringing it here so so

879
00:40:51,240 --> 00:40:48,940
the the point about bringing in a touch

880
00:40:53,220 --> 00:40:51,250
of perspective is it says that that you

881
00:40:55,170 --> 00:40:53,230
know all of life can be used not only

882
00:40:57,710 --> 00:40:55,180
for the purpose of transformation but as

883
00:41:00,990 --> 00:40:57,720
the expression of transformation and

884
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:01,000
energy what I think always implied in

885
00:41:05,820 --> 00:41:03,490
that the funny thing I find in that is

886
00:41:10,110 --> 00:41:05,830
what's implied is that is that is a

887
00:41:13,410 --> 00:41:10,120
transformation to what is pointing to

888
00:41:16,530 --> 00:41:13,420
what every spiritual master in in

889
00:41:18,390 --> 00:41:16,540
Buddhism and Hinduism has pointed to and

890
00:41:21,180 --> 00:41:18,400
what a lot of the Christian mystics have

891
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:21,190
pointed to as well and I'm sure some of

892
00:41:27,770 --> 00:41:24,370
the Kabbalah and and Jewish mystics as

893
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:27,780
well is that fundamentally we're

894
00:41:32,790 --> 00:41:31,330
transcending past this material world so

895
00:41:34,110 --> 00:41:32,800
if you're saying this is the stopping

896
00:41:37,710 --> 00:41:34,120
point and you want to stay here and play

897
00:41:38,820 --> 00:41:37,720
for a while I get that let me so go

898
00:41:40,590 --> 00:41:38,830
ahead I'll let you respond to that and

899
00:41:42,330 --> 00:41:40,600
that's you up another one it's not even

900
00:41:45,330 --> 00:41:42,340
like the last sit here I'm sorry for a

901
00:41:47,730 --> 00:41:45,340
while it's like this is where we live

902
00:41:49,859 --> 00:41:47,740
this is where our relationships happen

903
00:41:52,620 --> 00:41:49,869
this is where whatever inner work we're

904
00:41:54,990 --> 00:41:52,630
doing expresses itself and as you were

905
00:41:57,660 --> 00:41:55,000
saying earlier right it's very clear

906
00:42:00,720 --> 00:41:57,670
that that a large part of our current

907
00:42:03,780 --> 00:42:00,730
world is disintegrated and disconnected

908
00:42:05,370 --> 00:42:03,790
so I think you know what I appreciate

909
00:42:07,650 --> 00:42:05,380
about a lot of the traditions bringing

910
00:42:11,340 --> 00:42:07,660
in social engagement social activism

911
00:42:15,090 --> 00:42:11,350
it's it's just saying like let's let's

912
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:15,100
take all of that I'm not trying to get

913
00:42:20,010 --> 00:42:16,810
out of here because I'll get out of here

914
00:42:21,630 --> 00:42:20,020
from the time that I'm dead you know who

915
00:42:24,270 --> 00:42:21,640
knows what happens after right I got

916
00:42:27,780 --> 00:42:24,280
we're here now so I think that that that

917
00:42:31,770 --> 00:42:27,790
the the process that we're in is is most

918
00:42:33,300 --> 00:42:31,780
effectively expressed your here and now

919
00:42:36,330 --> 00:42:33,310
and not only with the people around us

920
00:42:39,930 --> 00:42:36,340
but that that's the capacity that that

921
00:42:43,740 --> 00:42:39,940
can can be brought into to change

922
00:42:46,650 --> 00:42:43,750
structures and to to you know to make a

923
00:42:48,300 --> 00:42:46,660
difference in real lives right AMA lives

924
00:42:50,970 --> 00:42:48,310
in some other world but she spends her

925
00:42:54,270 --> 00:42:50,980
her days hugging individuals who are

926
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:54,280
suffering exactly well I think that's

927
00:42:59,010 --> 00:42:56,410
the point and we can kind of return to

928
00:43:01,080 --> 00:42:59,020
that but I'll make the same point in a

929
00:43:03,810 --> 00:43:01,090
different way another great quote I love

930
00:43:05,250 --> 00:43:03,820
from Rick show and I show an episode

931
00:43:08,430 --> 00:43:05,260
that really slipped under the radar for

932
00:43:11,370 --> 00:43:08,440
a lot of people but for me as is there's

933
00:43:12,930 --> 00:43:11,380
a profoundness to what a profundity to

934
00:43:15,510 --> 00:43:12,940
what this truck driver who never

935
00:43:18,180 --> 00:43:15,520
meditated never practice any non-dual

936
00:43:21,470 --> 00:43:18,190
practice but just thought about things

937
00:43:23,910 --> 00:43:21,480
deeply and came to the conclusion that

938
00:43:27,420 --> 00:43:23,920
it's not going to work out

939
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:27,430
that's his profound contribution and I

940
00:43:34,020 --> 00:43:30,970
think it's a deep one it's not going to

941
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:34,030
work out so all my plans for what I want

942
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:35,050
for my kids

943
00:43:39,300 --> 00:43:37,090
that they're not going to work out all

944
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:39,310
my plans on my relationship with my wife

945
00:43:42,300 --> 00:43:40,570
and where that should go where my

946
00:43:45,990 --> 00:43:42,310
business should go for what I should do

947
00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:46,000
with my health none of it is going to

948
00:43:50,250 --> 00:43:48,250
work out it's certainly not going to

949
00:43:52,410 --> 00:43:50,260
work out exactly the way that I like and

950
00:43:54,870 --> 00:43:52,420
if I really get into it deeply I'm going

951
00:43:56,820 --> 00:43:54,880
to realize it's really not gonna work

952
00:43:59,700 --> 00:43:56,830
out at all and the reason it's not going

953
00:44:04,200 --> 00:43:59,710
to work out is because of what I'm

954
00:44:06,630 --> 00:44:04,210
said world what world I mean the science

955
00:44:09,180 --> 00:44:06,640
if we go back to following the data the

956
00:44:14,010 --> 00:44:09,190
best model we proudly have for what's

957
00:44:16,380 --> 00:44:14,020
going on is some form of idealism some

958
00:44:20,310 --> 00:44:16,390
form of consciousness being fundamental

959
00:44:24,839 --> 00:44:20,320
of us creating this reality so of course

960
00:44:27,390 --> 00:44:24,849
it's not going to work out doesn't that

961
00:44:30,660 --> 00:44:27,400
put a different spin on what you're

962
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:30,670
saying in terms of well you know I like

963
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:32,770
being on the wheel I like trying to be

964
00:44:40,260 --> 00:44:38,290
happy I like all the rest of that didn't

965
00:44:43,589 --> 00:44:40,270
say I like trying to be happy you know

966
00:44:45,870 --> 00:44:43,599
I'm grateful the other tried to be happy

967
00:44:47,070 --> 00:44:45,880
try to be happy being happy I like but

968
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:47,080
trying to be half they can be a real

969
00:44:52,890 --> 00:44:50,050
pain right and and being disappointed

970
00:44:55,410 --> 00:44:52,900
when I'm not so that so I don't know if

971
00:44:59,970 --> 00:44:55,420
it puts another spin on it I just you

972
00:45:03,210 --> 00:44:59,980
know I think the what I've always done

973
00:45:06,030 --> 00:45:03,220
in my in my books but in my life is is

974
00:45:08,310 --> 00:45:06,040
that we just and what readers have

975
00:45:10,079 --> 00:45:08,320
appreciated is that we take these big

976
00:45:14,190 --> 00:45:10,089
concepts and just let them be about

977
00:45:16,230 --> 00:45:14,200
about you and I and and not not high and

978
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:16,240
above them where other people live and

979
00:45:21,839 --> 00:45:17,770
where we suppose that we're we're gonna

980
00:45:24,810 --> 00:45:21,849
to get you but but like just just start

981
00:45:28,349 --> 00:45:24,820
here so I much appreciate what's what

982
00:45:31,620 --> 00:45:28,359
that man says and ninety-two because I

983
00:45:34,290 --> 00:45:31,630
have to say that you know I guess the

984
00:45:37,260 --> 00:45:34,300
reason I reacted to the kind of non-dual

985
00:45:40,410 --> 00:45:37,270
versus tantric stuff that that that

986
00:45:44,190 --> 00:45:40,420
supposed juxtaposition is that I don't

987
00:45:47,670 --> 00:45:44,200
see it I see what norio is saying as

988
00:45:50,430 --> 00:45:47,680
being deeply and profoundly putting me

989
00:45:53,070 --> 00:45:50,440
in the now I mean here's a guy who talks

990
00:45:55,020 --> 00:45:53,080
about you know realizing that it's not

991
00:45:57,960 --> 00:45:55,030
going to work out and that bringing him

992
00:46:01,230 --> 00:45:57,970
to where he can sit with his children

993
00:46:05,010 --> 00:46:01,240
and rather than tell them he can sit and

994
00:46:07,380 --> 00:46:05,020
just cry and just say wow you know I can

995
00:46:09,930 --> 00:46:07,390
be there for you right now because I

996
00:46:12,060 --> 00:46:09,940
don't have any expectations about how

997
00:46:13,290 --> 00:46:12,070
it's going to be or what it's going to

998
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:13,300
be because I

999
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:15,010
given up on the fact that it's going to

1000
00:46:20,490 --> 00:46:16,930
work out in some particular way so I

1001
00:46:23,250 --> 00:46:20,500
don't see this you know I'm todrick

1002
00:46:24,510 --> 00:46:23,260
I'm non-dual if people are hung up in

1003
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:24,520
that I think they've missed the point

1004
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:27,370
I'd go back to a moment when you say you

1005
00:46:31,290 --> 00:46:29,410
know people getting hung up and I'm

1006
00:46:34,380 --> 00:46:31,300
conscious I'm module I had a very

1007
00:46:36,330 --> 00:46:34,390
humbling moments in response to that and

1008
00:46:39,270 --> 00:46:36,340
it was about more than twenty years ago

1009
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:39,280
and I was interviewing Joan Halifax for

1010
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:40,810
this book cafe at the mountain that I

1011
00:46:45,180 --> 00:46:43,450
wrote in my 20s and it was a book about

1012
00:46:48,450 --> 00:46:45,190
premature claims to enlightenment

1013
00:46:50,490 --> 00:46:48,460
and I was really making a passionate

1014
00:46:53,850 --> 00:46:50,500
point about people's over-identification

1015
00:46:56,010 --> 00:46:53,860
with but their spirituality and and

1016
00:46:58,980 --> 00:46:56,020
their spiritual resume and all these

1017
00:47:01,800 --> 00:46:58,990
things she stopped me and she said look

1018
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:01,810
she said I teach Buddhism to prisoners

1019
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:05,770
on death row and and she says like

1020
00:47:10,860 --> 00:47:08,770
that's really like that's where the

1021
00:47:12,990 --> 00:47:10,870
rubber meets the road and she says for

1022
00:47:14,700 --> 00:47:13,000
me when people are like dressing up as

1023
00:47:16,470 --> 00:47:14,710
enlightened her this or that she said

1024
00:47:18,030 --> 00:47:16,480
it's it's like when you were a young

1025
00:47:21,060 --> 00:47:18,040
girl and you play dress up in your

1026
00:47:23,670 --> 00:47:21,070
mother's closet she said but she said it

1027
00:47:25,740 --> 00:47:23,680
was just it was just a stage you know

1028
00:47:29,310 --> 00:47:25,750
like don't don't even get hung up on

1029
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:29,320
that and it was super polite because I

1030
00:47:34,020 --> 00:47:31,330
had a real like ax to grind with people

1031
00:47:35,940 --> 00:47:34,030
who were who were caught up in this or

1032
00:47:40,790 --> 00:47:35,950
that and believe me you know I get

1033
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:40,800
slutted with it and then in some ways I

1034
00:47:48,750 --> 00:47:47,050
um right we can it's we're gonna keep

1035
00:47:50,970 --> 00:47:48,760
growing you know and hopefully in a good

1036
00:47:52,350 --> 00:47:50,980
direction with good with good helpers

1037
00:47:54,240 --> 00:47:52,360
and things are gonna happen I realize

1038
00:47:55,710 --> 00:47:54,250
we're gonna meet old age sickness and

1039
00:47:58,050 --> 00:47:55,720
death you know somebody's gonna die

1040
00:47:59,760 --> 00:47:58,060
we're gonna get sick and we're gonna you

1041
00:48:02,250 --> 00:47:59,770
know we're gonna get chances for real

1042
00:48:05,220 --> 00:48:02,260
wake-up calls and we will make use of

1043
00:48:08,220 --> 00:48:05,230
them or not make use of them but some

1044
00:48:10,170 --> 00:48:08,230
things happen developmentally right by

1045
00:48:13,260 --> 00:48:10,180
just growing up growing up in the path

1046
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:13,270
growing up in life yeah they hit the mat

1047
00:48:19,340 --> 00:48:16,330
I just I have such a reaction when you

1048
00:48:22,270 --> 00:48:19,350
know if somebody says I'm teaching Zen

1049
00:48:23,980 --> 00:48:22,280
meditation too

1050
00:48:26,500 --> 00:48:23,990
prisoners on death row that's where the

1051
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:26,510
rubber meets the road [\h__\h]

1052
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:30,050
somebody's teaching yoga to middle-aged

1053
00:48:34,780 --> 00:48:32,930
housewives out and Richie ritzy Rancho

1054
00:48:36,660 --> 00:48:34,790
Santa Fe where I live

1055
00:48:40,930 --> 00:48:36,670
that's where the rubber meets the road

1056
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:40,940
to think that somebody on death row is

1057
00:48:47,230 --> 00:48:44,570
closer to the road than any of us who

1058
00:48:50,380 --> 00:48:47,240
step on a yoga mat anywhere

1059
00:48:55,720 --> 00:48:50,390
III think again I I think misses the

1060
00:48:58,660 --> 00:48:55,730
point that wasn't the client well that's

1061
00:48:59,560 --> 00:48:58,670
what she said now I said that she said

1062
00:49:01,060 --> 00:48:59,570
that's where the rubber meets the road

1063
00:49:02,550 --> 00:49:01,070
but that was the point that I that I

1064
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:02,560
heard isn't the point that you heard

1065
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:08,090
well help me again he'll be like you

1066
00:49:15,010 --> 00:49:11,450
were you were saying that you know one

1067
00:49:16,780 --> 00:49:15,020
nice I was said something about Tantra

1068
00:49:19,150 --> 00:49:16,790
and people like I do like it Bacon

1069
00:49:22,090 --> 00:49:19,160
Vedanta I do I'm I practiced this and

1070
00:49:27,610 --> 00:49:22,100
I'm only saying that that I hear so much

1071
00:49:29,650 --> 00:49:27,620
of this and and and when I was a younger

1072
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:29,660
practitioner when I saw people doing

1073
00:49:34,810 --> 00:49:31,370
goddess yoga and all these things that

1074
00:49:39,490 --> 00:49:34,820
just drove me crazy I I had like strong

1075
00:49:41,830 --> 00:49:39,500
feelings about it and and as I grow up

1076
00:49:44,830 --> 00:49:41,840
and like humbles me I just have a little

1077
00:49:47,650 --> 00:49:44,840
bit more patience for people to to move

1078
00:49:49,810 --> 00:49:47,660
through stages and and hopefully you

1079
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:49,820
know support them with information they

1080
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:52,010
didn't have and and hopefully you know

1081
00:49:58,720 --> 00:49:54,610
let people grow up and and if they don't

1082
00:50:00,670 --> 00:49:58,730
place my attention somewhere else so she

1083
00:50:03,220 --> 00:50:00,680
was just she was just pointing out you

1084
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:03,230
know I was I was like via mentally you

1085
00:50:07,150 --> 00:50:05,210
know upset about people who are claiming

1086
00:50:10,180 --> 00:50:07,160
enlightenment prematurely and she's like

1087
00:50:11,770 --> 00:50:10,190
whatever no like no they'll grow up or

1088
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:11,780
they lost so that was much more of the

1089
00:50:22,540 --> 00:50:20,330
plane okay that's well but it is that

1090
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:22,550
one but that's okay because you said

1091
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:24,650
that you know Rick does that's these

1092
00:50:27,700 --> 00:50:26,090
were your words I'll edit this out but

1093
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:27,710
you said you know Rick does this

1094
00:50:32,740 --> 00:50:29,930
non-dual stuff and I come from this

1095
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:32,750
Tantra perspective so you set up the

1096
00:50:36,030 --> 00:50:34,850
duality not me and I'm saying I think

1097
00:50:40,590 --> 00:50:36,040
that duality

1098
00:50:42,420 --> 00:50:40,600
is is wrought with problems you know

1099
00:50:44,910 --> 00:50:42,430
it's like when we talked earlier on and

1100
00:50:46,830 --> 00:50:44,920
maybe I won't edit this part out you

1101
00:50:49,050 --> 00:50:46,840
know that them part you know oh well I

1102
00:50:50,580 --> 00:50:49,060
don't like talking about us versus them

1103
00:50:52,410 --> 00:50:50,590
in psychology oh really

1104
00:50:54,660 --> 00:50:52,420
tee it up for me I'll talk about us

1105
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:54,670
versus them all day long because people

1106
00:51:00,180 --> 00:50:56,890
who believe in the neuroscience model of

1107
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:00,190
consciousness are to a certain extent in

1108
00:51:04,950 --> 00:51:02,890
some kind of mind control program to

1109
00:51:07,620 --> 00:51:04,960
control our kids and to convince them

1110
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:07,630
that you know Pharma logical solutions

1111
00:51:12,750 --> 00:51:09,490
to their problems are the way to pursue

1112
00:51:14,340 --> 00:51:12,760
it and it is a battle for a particular

1113
00:51:16,020 --> 00:51:14,350
mindset if you want to talk about

1114
00:51:18,540 --> 00:51:16,030
religion you want to say there's no us

1115
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:18,550
versus them then I'm gonna say yeah

1116
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:20,890
there isn't us us versus them and we

1117
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:22,930
have a Pope that's so attached to the

1118
00:51:28,260 --> 00:51:26,170
pedophilia community inside the Catholic

1119
00:51:31,500 --> 00:51:28,270
Church that it's scary and as closest

1120
00:51:34,590 --> 00:51:31,510
aide for is love for a lifetime aid is

1121
00:51:36,660 --> 00:51:34,600
on trial right now in Australia with

1122
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:36,670
over a hundred kids that have come

1123
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:38,530
forward and said this guy repeatedly

1124
00:51:43,890 --> 00:51:42,130
raped them and as we know pedophiles if

1125
00:51:46,020 --> 00:51:43,900
there is when there's smoke like that

1126
00:51:47,670 --> 00:51:46,030
there's fire when a pope has surrounded

1127
00:51:50,550 --> 00:51:47,680
himself with a bunch of people who are

1128
00:51:52,500 --> 00:51:50,560
proven pedophiles then he cannot

1129
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:52,510
separate that out I don't have friends

1130
00:51:56,430 --> 00:51:54,970
who are pedophiles if I have a friend

1131
00:51:58,020 --> 00:51:56,440
and I find out they're a pedophile

1132
00:52:00,390 --> 00:51:58,030
they're no longer my friend

1133
00:52:02,460 --> 00:52:00,400
we cannot assume with everything that's

1134
00:52:04,230 --> 00:52:02,470
going on that this Pope is not a

1135
00:52:06,590 --> 00:52:04,240
pedophile in fact we should assume the

1136
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:06,600
opposite we should assume that he is

1137
00:52:12,990 --> 00:52:10,810
until he convincingly presents it as

1138
00:52:14,730 --> 00:52:13,000
that not being true so you want to say

1139
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:14,740
us-versus-them I'll step forward and say

1140
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:16,570
us-versus-them I think we have a pet up

1141
00:52:23,150 --> 00:52:19,810
hope so us-versus-them does work

1142
00:52:26,010 --> 00:52:23,160
sometimes it is necessary sometimes and

1143
00:52:27,570 --> 00:52:26,020
your your about that you know and I

1144
00:52:29,850 --> 00:52:27,580
understand you have a professional

1145
00:52:32,220 --> 00:52:29,860
obligation and an ethical obligation and

1146
00:52:34,650 --> 00:52:32,230
this and that I'm just saying you know

1147
00:52:41,010 --> 00:52:34,660
it's okay to call out some of this stuff

1148
00:52:43,050 --> 00:52:41,020
too yeah okay what works what doesn't

1149
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:43,060
the some thought would be interesting is

1150
00:52:47,190 --> 00:52:44,890
kind of a way to round up this

1151
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:47,200
discussion of it bring you into kind of

1152
00:52:53,130 --> 00:52:49,690
my world skeptical you know

1153
00:52:56,610 --> 00:52:53,140
here's a guy Professor biology awesome

1154
00:52:58,050 --> 00:52:56,620
guy dr. Rupert Sheldrake the science of

1155
00:53:00,150 --> 00:52:58,060
spiritual practices

1156
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:00,160
Rupert both wrote the foreword to my

1157
00:53:04,710 --> 00:53:02,650
book he's written so many fantastic

1158
00:53:06,930 --> 00:53:04,720
books is highly regarded he's a

1159
00:53:09,420 --> 00:53:06,940
Christian we had a little bit of a

1160
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:09,430
discussion about that but you know hey

1161
00:53:13,620 --> 00:53:11,170
here's the science of spiritual

1162
00:53:15,810 --> 00:53:13,630
practices you know pilgrimages are a

1163
00:53:18,870 --> 00:53:15,820
good idea meditation prayer is a good

1164
00:53:21,150 --> 00:53:18,880
idea does this work is this the path

1165
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:21,160
that people should pursue I'll tee up

1166
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:23,050
the rest as long as I'm added my other

1167
00:53:29,130 --> 00:53:25,810
friend Gordon white is into chaos magic

1168
00:53:33,750 --> 00:53:29,140
hey chaos magic that's the way that's

1169
00:53:35,820 --> 00:53:33,760
what works here my buddies Tony Robbins

1170
00:53:37,770 --> 00:53:35,830
the Iceman I don't think wim HOF gets

1171
00:53:40,590 --> 00:53:37,780
enough credit as the incredible yogi

1172
00:53:43,380 --> 00:53:40,600
that he is so I do ice baths all the

1173
00:53:46,010 --> 00:53:43,390
time it reminds me that I am NOT my body

1174
00:53:48,690 --> 00:53:46,020
when you're sitting in 35-degree water

1175
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:48,700
you've got to get that mental focus that

1176
00:53:54,330 --> 00:53:52,090
you are not really there your presence

1177
00:53:56,340 --> 00:53:54,340
your is there but your consciousness is

1178
00:53:58,490 --> 00:53:56,350
separate from that and I think let's see

1179
00:54:01,560 --> 00:53:58,500
if I headed it in and I think certainly

1180
00:54:08,610 --> 00:54:01,570
that's what you're offering up you're

1181
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:08,620
saying this is what works yoga in the

1182
00:54:13,980 --> 00:54:10,450
way that you're talking about it being

1183
00:54:15,390 --> 00:54:13,990
practiced can work for people so let's

1184
00:54:18,540 --> 00:54:15,400
in the time we have left

1185
00:54:22,170 --> 00:54:18,550
dialog about what works and what doesn't

1186
00:54:24,270 --> 00:54:22,180
because I think it lets Mariana people

1187
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:24,280
are wondering you know should I look at

1188
00:54:28,110 --> 00:54:26,050
chaos magic I have a lot of people in

1189
00:54:28,890 --> 00:54:28,120
the show who are into chaos magic and

1190
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:28,900
say wait a minute

1191
00:54:33,060 --> 00:54:31,210
why not chaos magic that's what that

1192
00:54:34,740 --> 00:54:33,070
should be my starting point you know or

1193
00:54:36,690 --> 00:54:34,750
people coming from a religious

1194
00:54:39,030 --> 00:54:36,700
background like Rupert and saying

1195
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:39,040
Christianity if I stick to it you know

1196
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:41,410
that's gonna work for me what works what

1197
00:54:45,090 --> 00:54:42,130
doesn't

1198
00:54:47,100 --> 00:54:45,100
your pragmatics your book is pragmatic

1199
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:47,110
it's a in a lot of ways it's a toolkit

1200
00:54:50,550 --> 00:54:47,890
kind of book

1201
00:54:55,190 --> 00:54:50,560
how do people address this what works

1202
00:54:58,440 --> 00:54:55,200
what doesn't what works is becoming very

1203
00:55:02,760 --> 00:54:58,450
intelligent practitioners right very

1204
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:02,770
intelligent people on the path and and

1205
00:55:06,190 --> 00:55:03,770
for me like

1206
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:06,200
I don't see spiritual life in the West

1207
00:55:10,510 --> 00:55:08,570
working without psychology I don't see

1208
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:10,520
you spiritual communities functioning

1209
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:13,370
without without the teachers and

1210
00:55:18,100 --> 00:55:15,530
students doing depth psychological work

1211
00:55:19,270 --> 00:55:18,110
however they're gonna do it especially

1212
00:55:20,860 --> 00:55:19,280
when we're importing in Eastern

1213
00:55:23,650 --> 00:55:20,870
tradition we're gonna drop it in the

1214
00:55:26,170 --> 00:55:23,660
West psychology has the tools and the

1215
00:55:28,300 --> 00:55:26,180
practices that that are going to support

1216
00:55:30,430 --> 00:55:28,310
things that that Eastern importations

1217
00:55:32,970 --> 00:55:30,440
are not going to support but don't we

1218
00:55:36,940 --> 00:55:32,980
have to get past a little bit the

1219
00:55:39,370 --> 00:55:36,950
spiritual relativism like you know well

1220
00:55:41,290 --> 00:55:39,380
it's all everyone we're all doing yoga

1221
00:55:43,300 --> 00:55:41,300
really right here this is with chaos

1222
00:55:44,710 --> 00:55:43,310
magic you know and i garden might have

1223
00:55:46,660 --> 00:55:44,720
the utmost respect for him he's been on

1224
00:55:48,580 --> 00:55:46,670
the show multiple times but a lot of

1225
00:55:50,710 --> 00:55:48,590
times the chaos magic people will say in

1226
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:50,720
one respect quite correctly and in

1227
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:52,130
another respect and a completely

1228
00:55:57,190 --> 00:55:54,290
meaningless way hey we're all doings

1229
00:55:59,590 --> 00:55:57,200
we're all doing magic all the time what

1230
00:56:02,860 --> 00:55:59,600
they mean is there is a reality to this

1231
00:56:06,100 --> 00:56:02,870
extended consciousness that does seem to

1232
00:56:08,950 --> 00:56:06,110
be occupied by spirits for lack of a

1233
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:08,960
better word if we're honest about it

1234
00:56:13,710 --> 00:56:11,570
every spiritual tradition talks about

1235
00:56:17,410 --> 00:56:13,720
this we can't deny it certainly

1236
00:56:20,260 --> 00:56:17,420
Christianity Judaism every the Buddhists

1237
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:20,270
the Hindus talk about this spiritual

1238
00:56:24,550 --> 00:56:22,370
realm and there being spirits that are

1239
00:56:27,550 --> 00:56:24,560
interacting so we're interacting with

1240
00:56:30,190 --> 00:56:27,560
them so why wouldn't we choose to

1241
00:56:34,180 --> 00:56:30,200
interact with them in a certain way try

1242
00:56:37,090 --> 00:56:34,190
and manage that relationship in a way so

1243
00:56:41,110 --> 00:56:37,100
that is a very specific way of saying

1244
00:56:43,300 --> 00:56:41,120
here's what works what some chaos

1245
00:56:45,220 --> 00:56:43,310
magician folks like to say though is

1246
00:56:46,930 --> 00:56:45,230
that then as soon as you say well what

1247
00:56:49,500 --> 00:56:46,940
about this word about that they go well

1248
00:56:52,540 --> 00:56:49,510
you know your yoga ecology is

1249
00:56:56,620 --> 00:56:52,550
effectively magic at work you know or

1250
00:56:59,320 --> 00:56:56,630
this so don't this relativism I think

1251
00:57:04,180 --> 00:56:59,330
can be a little confusing what is there

1252
00:57:06,700 --> 00:57:04,190
specifically about the yoga psychology

1253
00:57:10,240 --> 00:57:06,710
blend that you've found that makes it

1254
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:10,250
different from these other paths and in

1255
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:13,850
your opinion makes it better I mean I

1256
00:57:17,109 --> 00:57:16,490
think your somatic stuff is spoda I

1257
00:57:19,930 --> 00:57:17,119
think it's

1258
00:57:25,180 --> 00:57:19,940
an important distinction that people can

1259
00:57:26,980 --> 00:57:25,190
feel and grab on to is that stuff gets

1260
00:57:30,970 --> 00:57:26,990
caught in the body in ways that we don't

1261
00:57:34,269 --> 00:57:30,980
understand and your practice can change

1262
00:57:36,999 --> 00:57:34,279
that I mean that's my answer to the

1263
00:57:39,069 --> 00:57:37,009
question but what's your answer I don't

1264
00:57:42,009 --> 00:57:39,079
know I don't know how much more to to

1265
00:57:45,579 --> 00:57:42,019
add to that I mean I obviously like to

1266
00:57:47,559 --> 00:57:45,589
think that what I'm offering here is is

1267
00:57:50,289 --> 00:57:47,569
the you know the most effective

1268
00:57:52,450 --> 00:57:50,299
practices and ways to blend these two

1269
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:52,460
particular traditions but I don't think

1270
00:57:54,970 --> 00:57:53,450
that everyone in the world should be

1271
00:57:57,430 --> 00:57:54,980
doing yoga and psychology this is my

1272
00:57:59,140 --> 00:57:57,440
first book about yoga and psychology my

1273
00:58:03,249 --> 00:57:59,150
other books are about how to support

1274
00:58:06,579 --> 00:58:03,259
people to most effectively have a

1275
00:58:09,069 --> 00:58:06,589
fruitful and and a fruitful journey with

1276
00:58:11,559 --> 00:58:09,079
with most unnecessary suffering on

1277
00:58:14,109 --> 00:58:11,569
whatever path they choose so Mariana

1278
00:58:15,789 --> 00:58:14,119
this is terrific again I think I could

1279
00:58:19,559 --> 00:58:15,799
really really highly recommend this book

1280
00:58:22,839 --> 00:58:19,569
as a practicing yogi and someone who has

1281
00:58:26,109 --> 00:58:22,849
experienced firsthand the psychological

1282
00:58:28,870 --> 00:58:26,119
aspect to yoga I think this book

1283
00:58:32,259 --> 00:58:28,880
explores it in such a terrific way and

1284
00:58:33,729 --> 00:58:32,269
what really impresses me is that people

1285
00:58:36,819 --> 00:58:33,739
who pick up this good book are going to

1286
00:58:38,529 --> 00:58:36,829
find practical ways to take these ideas

1287
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:38,539
and take them into their practice and to

1288
00:58:42,579 --> 00:58:39,890
try them out and the way you're talking

1289
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:42,589
about so you know we've covered that we

1290
00:58:46,269 --> 00:58:43,730
haven't really talked about your other

1291
00:58:48,309 --> 00:58:46,279
books but people can find those on your

1292
00:58:50,950 --> 00:58:48,319
website and I also want people to

1293
00:58:54,339 --> 00:58:50,960
understand more of what you do in terms

1294
00:58:57,249 --> 00:58:54,349
of therapy work if they feel drawn to

1295
00:58:59,319 --> 00:58:57,259
you in any way so in the time we have

1296
00:59:01,089 --> 00:58:59,329
left can you tell us more about one

1297
00:59:04,390 --> 00:59:01,099
where they can get the book about your

1298
00:59:08,710 --> 00:59:04,400
website real spirituality and about your

1299
00:59:11,470 --> 00:59:08,720
therapy practice sure thanks so real

1300
00:59:14,380 --> 00:59:11,480
spirituality calm and yoga and psyche

1301
00:59:15,910 --> 00:59:14,390
calm you can link them and you can find

1302
00:59:19,059 --> 00:59:15,920
them through each other or just putting

1303
00:59:20,349 --> 00:59:19,069
my name in Google yoga and psyche calm

1304
00:59:22,809 --> 00:59:20,359
is much more about this material

1305
00:59:25,690 --> 00:59:22,819
specifically it has a whole library of

1306
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:25,700
all this academic research lots and lots

1307
00:59:33,550 --> 00:59:29,450
of free resources do that specifically

1308
00:59:37,569 --> 00:59:33,560
then as a clinician I do psychotherapy

1309
00:59:39,940 --> 00:59:37,579
and I do spiritual counseling so I work

1310
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:39,950
in person from my home in Fairfax

1311
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:42,170
California and I work through video

1312
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:45,170
anywhere in the world awesome again our

1313
00:59:49,300 --> 00:59:47,810
guest has been Mariana Kaplan Arianna

1314
00:59:51,599 --> 00:59:49,310
thank you so much for joining me on

1315
00:59:54,370 --> 00:59:51,609
skeptic oh my pleasure

1316
00:59:56,260 --> 00:59:54,380
so thanks for watching this video if it

1317
00:59:58,870 --> 00:59:56,270
wasn't really a video but just an audio

1318
01:00:00,400 --> 00:59:58,880
stored as a video I apologize but

1319
01:00:02,410 --> 01:00:00,410
there's more videos out there as well

1320
01:00:04,210 --> 01:00:02,420
but please check out the sceptical

1321
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:04,220
website you can see it here we cover a

1322
01:00:08,380 --> 01:00:05,570
lot of different stuff you might be

1323
01:00:11,710 --> 01:00:08,390
interested in relating to controversial

1324
01:00:15,130 --> 01:00:11,720
science and spirituality a lot of shows

1325
01:00:18,130 --> 01:00:15,140
up there over 350 of them or so all free

1326
01:00:19,590 --> 01:00:18,140
all available for download so do check

1327
01:00:24,110 --> 01:00:19,600
it out

1328
01:00:26,110 --> 01:00:24,120
[Music]